Conversation with ninjateben at 11/7/2008 7:46:28 PM on trumasamune (aim)
(7:46:28 PM) NinjaTeben: im back
(7:46:41 PM) NinjaTeben: what's new with you?
(7:47:47 PM) trumasamune: some cool stuff
(7:47:53 PM) trumasamune: I got a new desktop
(7:47:58 PM) NinjaTeben: oh snap
(7:48:06 PM) NinjaTeben: what brand?  or is it ibuypower
(7:48:09 PM) trumasamune: been playing dw6
(7:48:26 PM) trumasamune: it's some canadian company
(7:48:44 PM) NinjaTeben: Dynasty Warriors?!?!
(7:48:47 PM) trumasamune: Yep
(7:49:03 PM) NinjaTeben: did you know they made a "Romance of the Three kingdoms" anime?  following the story of the Shu nation
(7:49:09 PM) NinjaTeben: Lui Bei and his brothers.
(7:49:35 PM) NinjaTeben: before he became the leader fo the Shu.  The first episode is the Yellow Turban Rebellion.  so it seems it may follow the story pretty well
(7:49:45 PM) trumasamune: I did not know that no
(7:49:47 PM) NinjaTeben: its from like 1982 though lolol
(7:49:56 PM) trumasamune: I know theres some live action show
(7:50:02 PM) trumasamune: and a street fighterish game
(7:50:13 PM) NinjaTeben: hmm, strange
(7:50:24 PM) NinjaTeben: so i know you don't play it anymore, and actually i havent for 4 months
(7:50:34 PM) NinjaTeben: but in the next maple patch in 3 days, a new job class comes out
(7:50:48 PM) trumasamune: the pirates or what
(7:51:05 PM) NinjaTeben: yea pirates.  at first i was against them, but they seem to take maple in a different route than the other 4 classes
(7:51:15 PM) NinjaTeben: so im gonna start playing again, leisurely of course
(7:51:27 PM) trumasamune: ok
(7:51:39 PM) NinjaTeben: yea, that's pretty much my entire story.  anywho
(7:51:58 PM) NinjaTeben: i decided to go out and buy another copy of FFX...but that's beside the point ::cough::  what else is cool and new with you?
(7:52:33 PM) trumasamune: Thats all
(7:52:37 PM) trumasamune: I use my computer all day
(7:52:57 PM) NinjaTeben: hahaha, fantastic
(7:53:08 PM) trumasamune: I've also been pretty mad at you lately
(7:53:21 PM) trumasamune: but thats whatever
(7:53:26 PM) NinjaTeben: what's up?
(7:53:55 PM) trumasamune: I don't know I just think about stuff you've told me before too much I guess
(7:54:12 PM) NinjaTeben: about my theology and ideology and all that ology?
(7:54:46 PM) trumasamune: I'm going to say yes.
(7:54:57 PM) trumasamune: Some of it it second hand from bryant and sean too but yeah
(7:55:11 PM) NinjaTeben: but i haven't even spoken to sean in months!
(7:55:21 PM) NinjaTeben: i talk to Bry like everyday, true.
(7:55:54 PM) trumasamune: Yeah he showed me some bulletin things you wrote on myspace
(7:56:02 PM) trumasamune: and we talked about it
(7:56:56 PM) NinjaTeben: im racking my brains, but i can't even think of the last survey/bultien/blog i've posted.
(7:57:01 PM) NinjaTeben: so i take it this is from a while back
(7:57:32 PM) trumasamune: Yeah it was
(7:57:51 PM) NinjaTeben: well im sorry if i offended you in some way
(7:58:12 PM) trumasamune: nah you didn't, it's not like that
(7:58:23 PM) NinjaTeben: lol i get it though.
(7:58:36 PM) NinjaTeben: you're looking out for me in your own special way
(7:59:00 PM) trumasamune: Well not really
(7:59:35 PM) trumasamune: because you've said before theres some things you never question or think about and theres nothing I can do about it
(7:59:36 PM) NinjaTeben: that sucks, i usually get those things right
(7:59:52 PM) NinjaTeben: ooh that
(8:00:15 PM) trumasamune: and some are very terrible, ignorant, exclusionary, illogical things
(8:00:31 PM) NinjaTeben: like God in general? 
(8:00:43 PM) trumasamune: No.
(8:00:59 PM) NinjaTeben: i don't think i told you flat out "there's nothing you can do about it"  but i will admit that they're pretty bedrock principals that can't easily be shook
(8:02:04 PM) trumasamune: well you said they never waver, so if nobody has ever made you examine them before, I certainly have almost no chance
(8:02:52 PM) NinjaTeben: it's not that i've never examined them before
(8:03:07 PM) NinjaTeben: in 10th grade in Beasly's class
(8:03:19 PM) NinjaTeben: it was a self examination of why i believed these things every day
(8:04:08 PM) NinjaTeben: i have many times before even thought to myself "what if it isn't real" but then there's a surge of confidence that comes up and irradicates the notion
(8:04:31 PM) NinjaTeben: i mean, i almost find it offensive this picture of me you have painted in your mind
(8:04:39 PM) NinjaTeben: or at least the one im assuming is painted
(8:04:43 PM) trumasamune: mhm
(8:05:17 PM) NinjaTeben: that im some ignorant fool easily swayed, trapped so deep in this brainwashed cycle that i;ve never once thought about it formyself
(8:05:38 PM) trumasamune: All I can think about are the people in saudi arabia and syria who are born into the same thing, and have the same unwavering fealty to islam
(8:06:16 PM) trumasamune: and I think about what makes you think you're right and they're wrong
(8:06:21 PM) trumasamune: a reason that they couldn't use that you can
(8:06:50 PM) trumasamune: I don't think there are any convincing enough
(8:07:42 PM) trumasamune: and steve I'm sorry but you are ignorant in many respects
(8:07:45 PM) NinjaTeben: hmm
(8:08:07 PM) NinjaTeben: i don't even know how to put it in words.  
(8:08:10 PM) NinjaTeben: it's like...
(8:08:30 PM) NinjaTeben: i almost feel as if theres no proof grand enough for you.
(8:08:40 PM) NinjaTeben: it's like you're just as devoted to something as i am
(8:08:52 PM) NinjaTeben: and the muslims are
(8:08:55 PM) NinjaTeben: and all that.
(8:09:06 PM) trumasamune: I see, yeah religious people use that a lot
(8:09:18 PM) trumasamune: but the thing is I don't claim to know, I claim that I don't
(8:09:23 PM) trumasamune: thats the difference
(8:09:46 PM) NinjaTeben: the difference between me growing up here, and the saudi arabians is that they really are locked into a submissive fielty
(8:09:58 PM) NinjaTeben: you cant be anything but islamic or you're killed, shunned, ex communicated
(8:10:11 PM) NinjaTeben: i grew up in  America, trust me, i could seriously easily walk away from christ
(8:10:20 PM) NinjaTeben: it's not like 90% of americans teens don't anyway lol
(8:10:31 PM) NinjaTeben: it's not as forced on me as it is over there.
(8:10:34 PM) trumasamune: um...what do you think parts of kenteucky, tennessee, mississippi are like?
(8:10:43 PM) NinjaTeben: but we're talking about me...
(8:10:43 PM) trumasamune: why can you not get elected if you don't believe in god
(8:10:51 PM) trumasamune: well you say america like you've been everywhere
(8:10:52 PM) NinjaTeben: weren't we?
(8:10:59 PM) NinjaTeben: fine, plantation
(8:11:03 PM) trumasamune: ok thats plantation
(8:11:10 PM) trumasamune: I'm sure there are some places in those countries where its not as bad
(8:11:13 PM) NinjaTeben: but this whole discussion is about me sin't it?
(8:11:23 PM) NinjaTeben: isn't*
(8:11:40 PM) NinjaTeben: not in an egotistical sense.  but this discussion was formed from you being mad at my rationale
(8:11:46 PM) trumasamune: This is what I mean....
(8:12:08 PM) trumasamune: it's about you yes, but just because things are different for youuuuuuu doesn't mean they are that way for everyone
(8:12:19 PM) trumasamune: which is the generalization you made in your argument about muslim people
(8:12:22 PM) NinjaTeben: but THAT is also what I mean
(8:13:02 PM) NinjaTeben: it's different fro every person.  so don't compare my fidelity to Christianity to a muslims fidelity to Islam.
(8:13:08 PM) NinjaTeben: things are different for everybody
(8:13:15 PM) NinjaTeben: this is a very weak argument im portraying
(8:13:21 PM) NinjaTeben: and i wish i could say what im thinking better
(8:13:32 PM) NinjaTeben: but for some reason im just sucking right now and the words i want to use aren't coming out
(8:13:46 PM) trumasamune: So it's ok for things to be different for everybody?
(8:14:16 PM) trumasamune: then you shouldn't be against gay marriage, abortion, etc. etc.
(8:14:39 PM) trumasamune: thats you imposing your beliefs on other people, meaning things aren't the same
(8:14:54 PM) trumasamune: or rather its not ok for things to be different for everyone
(8:14:58 PM) NinjaTeben: i just feel you wont be happy until i'm not devoted to anything.  like sean, or Derek, or Bryant, or really every other friend of ours
(8:15:22 PM) NinjaTeben: it's my personal convictions about God that set me aside and upset you
(8:15:27 PM) trumasamune: No.  You need better reasons for what you believe
(8:15:31 PM) NinjaTeben: nothing really to do with me, my sense of humor or any of that
(8:15:38 PM) trumasamune: ok as an example
(8:15:48 PM) trumasamune: we have those crazy fundamentalist people on campus from time to time
(8:15:55 PM) trumasamune: the ones like westboro baptist church
(8:15:58 PM) NinjaTeben: but "not knowing what to believe" is living the same lifestyle as "i dont believe in god"
(8:16:05 PM) trumasamune: who judge everyone and say everyone is going to hell
(8:16:09 PM) NinjaTeben: derek is an athiest, sean an agnostic...but what is different about their lives?
(8:16:13 PM) NinjaTeben: and logic and morals?
(8:16:51 PM) trumasamune: They're not irrational
(8:16:55 PM) trumasamune: you weren't born a christian
(8:17:05 PM) trumasamune: you were convinced into becoming one
(8:17:09 PM) NinjaTeben: so it was a choice i made
(8:17:11 PM) NinjaTeben: why though?
(8:17:19 PM) NinjaTeben: why wasn't i smart enough to choose it for myself?
(8:17:24 PM) NinjaTeben: why do you always say i was forced into it?
(8:17:41 PM) NinjaTeben: you always take away my freedom when you talk about it
(8:17:51 PM) NinjaTeben: it's something i was stupid enough to fall for
(8:17:53 PM) trumasamune: Because it's the type of person you are
(8:17:59 PM) trumasamune: you don't like to say no to anyone
(8:18:09 PM) NinjaTeben: i say no to Allah >_>;;
(8:18:11 PM) trumasamune: so how the hell would you be able to say to your father, or you mom
(8:18:14 PM) NinjaTeben: and Democrats xD
(8:18:17 PM) trumasamune: no sorry I don't really believe that
(8:18:21 PM) NinjaTeben: ....
(8:18:22 PM) NinjaTeben: seriously?
(8:18:42 PM) trumasamune: Why do you say no to allah?
(8:18:46 PM) NinjaTeben: maybe we need to spend more time together
(8:18:50 PM) trumasamune: have you examined the koran or do you think you don't need to
(8:19:16 PM) NinjaTeben: i haven't studied the koran at all, much like the bible to be honest
(8:19:26 PM) trumasamune: ok at least you admit that
(8:19:37 PM) trumasamune: alright lets talk about the bible then because thats interesting
(8:19:56 PM) NinjaTeben: k go
(8:20:00 PM) NinjaTeben: wait before i do go
(8:20:02 PM) NinjaTeben: i mean
(8:20:05 PM) NinjaTeben: before we start
(8:20:06 PM) trumasamune: like I'm not gonna bring up example or anything
(8:20:41 PM) trumasamune: if you haven't studied the bible, do you still think everything in it is 100% true? that is what you told me last time
(8:20:47 PM) NinjaTeben: i go back to what i origionally said.  you say my reasons aren't good enough (for you) however they are for me.  so i'll only be all right in your eyes when i meet your standards
(8:20:56 PM) trumasamune: that there needs to be a literal interpretation of it or else it's not any better than any other book
(8:21:07 PM) NinjaTeben: but as of now, you don't have any reason to believe in what i do, so in a sense the only way to meet your standards is to end my faith
(8:21:38 PM) trumasamune: I don't want you to end your faith
(8:21:45 PM) trumasamune: that would make me a terrible person
(8:22:01 PM) NinjaTeben: and yea i still believe it's all litterally true.  when i say i haven't studied it i only mean i haven't gone to seminary or school for it.  i've done sunday schoold and bible studies and devotionals and read a good 50% of it

(8:22:08 PM) NinjaTeben: so i may have missrepresented myself earlier
(8:22:15 PM) trumasamune: Ok I see thats fine
(8:23:19 PM) trumasamune: Alright...where to go from there...
(8:23:38 PM) trumasamune: so clearly there are people who devote their lives to studying the bible, right?
(8:23:46 PM) NinjaTeben: yes
(8:24:10 PM) trumasamune: does that mean that the average person needs help in interpreting it? or can anyone read it and get the same message
(8:24:48 PM) NinjaTeben: if it is a litteral interpretation as im saying it is....then nothing needs to be interpreted if you understand the sentence structure, word meanings, conotations and things like that
(8:24:48 PM) trumasamune: sorry thats a loaded question
(8:25:20 PM) NinjaTeben: the only things that would need to be spelled out are things where people see the imagry, but still don't understand the story or concept
(8:25:27 PM) NinjaTeben: much like in any english class.

(8:25:49 PM) NinjaTeben: i mean if i write "the cat ate the mouse" and you understand each word individually and can piece together the litteral meaning
(8:25:54 PM) NinjaTeben: then theres no interpretation neccessary
(8:26:27 PM) NinjaTeben: but sometimes the average joe does need help understanding things, writings, passages, stories- the bible being no exception
(8:26:39 PM) trumasamune: alright
(8:26:51 PM) trumasamune: and who is instructing those people who help the average joes
(8:26:57 PM) trumasamune: where did that knowledge come from
(8:27:19 PM) NinjaTeben: the knowlege is already there.  like mathematics.
(8:27:31 PM) NinjaTeben: it didn't really come from anywhere, but they may be inately more intelligent
(8:27:39 PM) NinjaTeben: or in some way be able to process it faster and easier
(8:27:47 PM) NinjaTeben: and then be able to explain it in a way the average joe can
(8:27:58 PM) NinjaTeben: like a math teacher explains complicated formulas 
(8:28:00 PM) trumasamune: sorry math is a very bad example
(8:28:04 PM) NinjaTeben: why?
(8:28:07 PM) NinjaTeben: it's a constant set
(8:28:22 PM) NinjaTeben: it doesn't change like science or language.  the rules are finite and absolute
(8:28:32 PM) trumasamune: because that means martin luther came up with 2+2 = 5 and constantinople says it equals 6 and joseph smith said it equaled 27
(8:28:43 PM) NinjaTeben: the knowlege lies ahead, but it's up to you to understand it.  if you cannot, there are others who can see the litteralness of it and interpret it to you
(8:28:52 PM) trumasamune: but thats the thing
(8:29:03 PM) trumasamune: the interpretations are all totally different
(8:29:08 PM) trumasamune: just like everyones concept of god
(8:29:12 PM) NinjaTeben: that doesn't make the information false
(8:29:25 PM) NinjaTeben: if i say 2+2=5 it doesn;t make math wrong, it makes me wrong
(8:29:31 PM) NinjaTeben: math lies on its own, unchanged by our will
(8:29:44 PM) trumasamune: no, certainly not.  It does make it harder for me to believe that you're right though
(8:29:51 PM) NinjaTeben: true.
(8:29:56 PM) trumasamune: and makese me feel weird when you say you know for sure that you're right and everyone else is wrong
(8:30:07 PM) NinjaTeben: but i didn't base my faith on martain luther king or constantinople
(8:30:28 PM) NinjaTeben: i based it on the small amounts i have read and studied
(8:30:39 PM) NinjaTeben: my OWN work.  im not retarded.  i didn't have to have it spoon fed
(8:31:05 PM) trumasamune: Well....the council of nycea basically retranslated the bible 5 or 600 years before king james version
(8:31:17 PM) trumasamune: and martin l. is pretty much where baptism came from
(8:31:26 PM) trumasamune: so they have affected the small amounts you've read and studied
(8:31:56 PM) NinjaTeben: but baptism is talked about in the bible itself...how could it possibly have come from doctor king?
(8:32:08 PM) NinjaTeben: it was already laid out there.  maybe others before king didn't get it
(8:32:13 PM) NinjaTeben: but its the same with math.
(8:32:23 PM) NinjaTeben: contrary to what you said, im finding math to be a great example
(8:32:33 PM) trumasamune: wtf...doctor king?
(8:32:40 PM) trumasamune: I'm talking about the original martin luther
(8:32:46 PM) NinjaTeben: yea, wow
(8:32:56 PM) NinjaTeben: sorry im typing on 3 message boards
(8:32:59 PM) NinjaTeben: i knew you meant him
(8:33:02 PM) trumasamune: ok
(8:33:20 PM) NinjaTeben: so that slip aside
(8:33:23 PM) NinjaTeben: my point remains
(8:33:27 PM) NinjaTeben: he didn't invent baptism
(8:33:32 PM) NinjaTeben: baptism was in the bible already
(8:33:50 PM) trumasamune: so catholics are wrong about it, right?
(8:33:57 PM) NinjaTeben: about what?
(8:34:11 PM) trumasamune: about baptism, but it doesn't matter really
(8:34:14 PM) trumasamune: about whatever you want
(8:34:31 PM) NinjaTeben: the only problem i have with catholic baptism is that they do it before a kid even knows his own name
(8:34:40 PM) NinjaTeben: as if the ceremony itself has some magic properties...
(8:35:08 PM) NinjaTeben: baptism is nothing more than a physical proclomation of faith.  it's you getting in front of your peers and saying "hey i believe this and im not afraid to say it"
(8:35:25 PM) NinjaTeben: catholics believe the baptism will save the child!!!
(8:35:27 PM) trumasamune: Ok, and what do you think about teaching a 4 or 5 year old about hell and eternal damnation? before they can even do multiplication....
(8:35:33 PM) NinjaTeben: because water and a prayer = magic?
(8:35:39 PM) trumasamune: is that ok?
(8:35:51 PM) NinjaTeben: i figure it's pretty important information
(8:36:04 PM) trumasamune: ....and they can comprehend it?
(8:36:11 PM) NinjaTeben: im not against "sugar coating it" until they mature a bit more and can grasp it
(8:36:22 PM) NinjaTeben: i was baptised when i was 12
(8:36:29 PM) NinjaTeben: im pretty sure i comprehended it
(8:36:36 PM) trumasamune: then you're lucky
(8:36:44 PM) trumasamune: I said 5 years old, which happens
(8:36:48 PM) NinjaTeben: i know but ivan
(8:36:51 PM) NinjaTeben: don't you get it?
(8:37:01 PM) NinjaTeben: you keep throwing all these practices at me and telling me how wrong they are
(8:37:04 PM) NinjaTeben: and what am i doing?
(8:37:07 PM) NinjaTeben: AGREEING WITH YOU
(8:37:10 PM) trumasamune: no
(8:37:12 PM) NinjaTeben: ..
(8:37:13 PM) trumasamune: you haven't said that its wrong
(8:37:25 PM) trumasamune: you said you were ok with it being sugar coated which is different
(8:37:34 PM) NinjaTeben: look at it this way.
(8:37:45 PM) trumasamune: just flat out say its wrong steve whats what I want
(8:37:52 PM) trumasamune: if you really agree with me say it
(8:37:58 PM) trumasamune: it's wrong to teach a 5 year old those things
(8:38:00 PM) NinjaTeben: listen to this first
(8:38:46 PM) NinjaTeben: say theres information a person NEEDS to know to live past the age of 10.  its brutal information that may not be suited to them before that age but they have to know it.  you can either look past it and hope theyre desensitised enough to grasp it, or you can gamble with it
(8:38:50 PM) NinjaTeben: and put it off till later.
(8:39:05 PM) NinjaTeben: im saying its extremeyl important information.  probably some of the most important
(8:39:13 PM) NinjaTeben: i'd wanna know something this important ASAP
(8:39:19 PM) NinjaTeben: rather than have my future gambled on it
(8:39:25 PM) trumasamune: ok, what do you think psychologists that have studied the matter say about it?
(8:39:42 PM) NinjaTeben: theres no guarentee that those 5 year olds wont die the next day in a bus crash or terrorist attack
(8:39:49 PM) trumasamune: do you seriously think that a 5 year old can fully comprehend, no matter how important it is, a place where if you don't do something you'll go and burn forever and ever without anyone to help you
(8:39:52 PM) NinjaTeben: so you can gamble that theyll be alive till 15 or so when they can learn it
(8:40:21 PM) NinjaTeben: maybe not the full bredth of it, but yes they can get some of it
(8:40:41 PM) NinjaTeben: they can rationalise it to something of the effect "its like when i dont do what mommy says, she puts me in my room where im all alone"
(8:41:03 PM) trumasamune: You haven't said that it's wrong yet, so all I'm getting is "Its ok Ivan I have no problem with people doing that"
(8:41:12 PM) trumasamune: if that is wrong tell me now
(8:41:27 PM) trumasamune: is it wrong, yes or no
(8:41:31 PM) NinjaTeben: you're making it so black and white...
(8:41:37 PM) NinjaTeben: what do you think i mean when i say sugar coated?
(8:41:42 PM) trumasamune: because it is, I guarantee you without a doubt it is
(8:41:47 PM) trumasamune: look at the way you avoid answering
(8:41:55 PM) NinjaTeben: is it wrong to stare a 5 year old in the face and say "son you're gonna burn in hell for all your sins"
(8:41:58 PM) NinjaTeben: YES THATS WRONG
(8:42:24 PM) NinjaTeben: is it wrong to teach a 5 year old "a place called hell exists, it's an aweful place where you go when you die if you don't love jesus etc etc"
(8:42:29 PM) NinjaTeben: no that's not wrong at all IMO
(8:42:38 PM) NinjaTeben: theres different ways to say it
(8:42:52 PM) NinjaTeben: you keep saying it like all that ever happens is the FIRST option
(8:42:53 PM) trumasamune: I know what you're saying, the severity of it doesn't matter
(8:42:55 PM) NinjaTeben: which is just creepy...
(8:42:59 PM) NinjaTeben: why not?
(8:43:06 PM) NinjaTeben: the severity is the entire key in my mind
(8:43:10 PM) trumasamune: sugar coating it is worse then
(8:43:15 PM) trumasamune: you're misrepresenting it
(8:43:28 PM) NinjaTeben: it's not sugar coating it in the sense where you're clouding the true meaning and lieing to the child
(8:43:34 PM) NinjaTeben: it's using it in terms they can understand
(8:43:53 PM) NinjaTeben: how can you even really represent hell ivan?
(8:43:59 PM) NinjaTeben: please explain eternal damnation to ME,
(8:44:02 PM) NinjaTeben: a college student
(8:44:20 PM) NinjaTeben: go aahead and try.  everything i could ever tell you about hell and it's terribleness would missrepresent it 
(8:44:29 PM) NinjaTeben: because we have nothing in this world to compare it to
(8:44:39 PM) trumasamune: (because it doesn't exist) but ok
(8:44:43 PM) NinjaTeben: i can try to tell you it's like the loneliest feeling you ever felt, it's like the worst pain you ever felt
(8:44:53 PM) NinjaTeben: (it doens't exist in this physical realm)
(8:44:54 PM) trumasamune: if you have a problem with the way I asked it
(8:45:02 PM) trumasamune: do you think that there has ever been a case where
(8:45:18 PM) trumasamune: a child has been taught about hell in a non sugar-coated way
(8:45:22 PM) trumasamune: ?
(8:45:25 PM) NinjaTeben: im sure there has
(8:45:35 PM) trumasamune: alright, and to clarify you are not ok with that?

(8:45:40 PM) trumasamune: just that way
(8:45:43 PM) trumasamune: sugar coating is ok
(8:45:43 PM) NinjaTeben: we are NOT okay with that
(8:45:46 PM) trumasamune: alright
(8:45:56 PM) trumasamune: I don't know why that took 10 minutes but thats all I wanted
(8:46:01 PM) NinjaTeben: ....
(8:46:05 PM) NinjaTeben: don't play that ivan
(8:46:23 PM) trumasamune: It's important because the first thing you did was try to defend it
(8:46:23 PM) NinjaTeben:  trumasamune (8:37:10 PM): you haven't said that its wrong 
trumasamune (8:37:23 PM): you said you were ok with it being sugar coated which is different 
NinjaTeben (8:37:32 PM): look at it this way. 
trumasamune (8:37:43 PM): just flat out say its wrong steve whats what I want
(8:46:44 PM) trumasamune: it's different...
(8:46:54 PM) NinjaTeben: i've said the same thing over and over and it wasn't good enough 10 minutes ago but it is now?
(8:47:45 PM) trumasamune: yes because at 8:45:43 was the first time you said you are not ok with something without justifying it in some way
(8:47:59 PM) trumasamune: and this is what I was getting at
(8:48:03 PM) trumasamune: it's important because
(8:48:10 PM) trumasamune: there is a person we are both very good friends with
(8:48:15 PM) trumasamune: who was taught at 5 years old about hell
(8:48:22 PM) NinjaTeben: probably derek by the sounds of it
(8:48:26 PM) trumasamune: and had to take psychological medication because of it
(8:48:38 PM) trumasamune: like heavy mind-fucking drugs
(8:48:48 PM) trumasamune: because the fear of hell was so great they couldn't function normally
(8:48:56 PM) NinjaTeben: please plase PLEASE don't think im defending it... but
(8:49:03 PM) trumasamune: I'm going to, stop there.
(8:49:07 PM) NinjaTeben: do you think that maybe it also had to do with that person metaly >_>
(8:49:14 PM) NinjaTeben: if you tell 2 people the same EXACT thing.
(8:49:23 PM) NinjaTeben: their minds are different
(8:49:28 PM) NinjaTeben: and they may react in different ways
(8:49:33 PM) NinjaTeben: as people do with allergies and drugs.
(8:50:01 PM) trumasamune: Ok, what is your point?  There are some 5 year olds that should and would be able to handle it?
(8:50:23 PM) NinjaTeben: some 5 year olds might be able to handle it.  some 2 year olds might be able to.  some 50 year olds might NOT be able to
(8:50:35 PM) NinjaTeben: people are all different.  and to look at an extreme case like that
(8:50:48 PM) NinjaTeben: and blame the whole practice
(8:50:49 PM) trumasamune: if I thought it would do any good I'd show you the studies done with control groups
(8:50:52 PM) NinjaTeben: that  isn't even scientific..
(8:51:04 PM) trumasamune: with different churches and different denominations as control groups
(8:51:13 PM) trumasamune: lots of case studies
(8:51:31 PM) trumasamune: and the conclusion was that there was definitely an age where it became not as severe
(8:51:43 PM) trumasamune: obviously it wasn't exact, more like a range
(8:51:47 PM) NinjaTeben: i'll agree with that actually
(8:51:53 PM) trumasamune: but 5 years old was not in it
(8:51:58 PM) trumasamune: at 5 it's NEVER ok
(8:52:15 PM) NinjaTeben: alright i'll agree with that too, it's not good for a 5 year old
(8:52:37 PM) trumasamune: ok
(8:52:41 PM) trumasamune: and no it wasn't derek
(8:52:59 PM) NinjaTeben: ok
(8:53:45 PM) trumasamune: my problem is that you had all these little justifications and exceptions and reasons and what not for why it might be ok
(8:53:51 PM) trumasamune: before we got here
(8:54:12 PM) trumasamune: my belief is that you have them for a lot of things
(8:54:20 PM) NinjaTeben: was it litterally "never" okay at 5?  or did the standard deviation fall outside of the 5 year old realm
(8:54:22 PM) trumasamune: and it is something you don't really have control over
(8:54:29 PM) NinjaTeben: and there were never special cases where it was ok at 5?
(8:54:36 PM) trumasamune: no, it wasn't
(8:54:50 PM) trumasamune: they were asked questions regarding what they thought hell was
(8:54:56 PM) trumasamune: and what happened there
(8:55:00 PM) NinjaTeben: and how did they deem it "okay"  to what does the person have to come mentally?
(8:55:06 PM) trumasamune: and on a scale how afraid they were of it
(8:55:20 PM) NinjaTeben: ...fear?  it was dictaated on fear of the place?
(8:55:36 PM) NinjaTeben: and basically all the 5 yeara olds were really scared of it
(8:55:39 PM) NinjaTeben: so that made it bad
(8:55:44 PM) trumasamune: no...
(8:55:53 PM) trumasamune: everyone was scared of it obviously
(8:56:30 PM) trumasamune: what bothers you about that though
(8:56:36 PM) trumasamune: why are you continuing the subject
(8:57:20 PM) NinjaTeben: because when you said that it made me think, how credible was the experimetn anyway.  i didn;t know at all what variables they based it on
(8:57:37 PM) NinjaTeben: so i was merely inquiring as to what they after to deem these children mentally sound or not after having been sexposed to it
(8:57:45 PM) trumasamune: so deep down, you are still thinking that there are probably some instances where it is ok
(8:58:03 PM) NinjaTeben: probably somewhere
(8:58:21 PM) NinjaTeben: the problem with studies is they never study everyone.  they study a group
(8:58:29 PM) NinjaTeben: and deem those results as able to dictate the whole
(8:59:09 PM) trumasamune: alright so pretend I never had a study I'm just basing it off what happened to our friend and what he told me about it
(8:59:28 PM) trumasamune: and that is enough for me to think that it's wrong, it should not be done, ever
(8:59:33 PM) trumasamune: for you that is not enough
(8:59:55 PM) NinjaTeben: no its not.  thats taking 1 instance.  just 1
(9:00:04 PM) trumasamune: which is why I said in the beginning if I thought it would do any good I would show you the study
(9:00:05 PM) NinjaTeben: and making it take precedence over all the rest
(9:00:18 PM) trumasamune: just 1 isn't enough, just the experiment isn't enough because they didn't test everybody
(9:00:29 PM) trumasamune: so until they are able to teest everyone we should teach some 5 year olds about hell
(9:00:31 PM) NinjaTeben: is just 1 enough to you?
(9:00:41 PM) NinjaTeben: sure
(9:00:50 PM) NinjaTeben: and i say sure because i dont even know where you
(9:00:55 PM) NinjaTeben: you're going anymore
(9:01:01 PM) NinjaTeben: or the point of this discussion
(9:01:05 PM) NinjaTeben: or the topic of 5 year olds
(9:01:11 PM) trumasamune: Where I'm going is if you really think that I can't be your friend anymore
(9:01:21 PM) NinjaTeben: that sucks
(9:01:26 PM) NinjaTeben: you just did the "1" thing again
(9:01:27 PM) trumasamune: which is why I had to make sure
(9:01:36 PM) trumasamune: what 1 thing?
(9:01:47 PM) NinjaTeben: taking 1 instance and making it take precedence over all the rest
(9:02:06 PM) trumasamune: alright, so you want me to try again?
(9:02:13 PM) trumasamune: how old is the world
(9:02:17 PM) NinjaTeben: lolol
(9:02:24 PM) trumasamune: at least how old is it
(9:02:29 PM) NinjaTeben: hmmmm
(9:02:37 PM) NinjaTeben: 10 thousand?
(9:02:58 PM) trumasamune: if you take the bible literally all the experts say it can't be that much
(9:03:09 PM) trumasamune: quotes around expert
(9:03:30 PM) NinjaTeben: oh really?
(9:03:32 PM) trumasamune: yeah
(9:03:41 PM) NinjaTeben: wait, like it's supposed to be bigger?
(9:03:42 PM) NinjaTeben: or smaller?
(9:03:45 PM) trumasamune: smaller
(9:03:49 PM) NinjaTeben: oh, that's fine
(9:04:01 PM) NinjaTeben: maybe even more in the neighborhood of 5k
(9:04:09 PM) trumasamune: is that your answer?
(9:04:13 PM) NinjaTeben: yea
(9:04:39 PM) trumasamune: So nothing on the earth is older than 5 thousand years?
(9:04:42 PM) trumasamune: nothing at all?
(9:04:49 PM) NinjaTeben: shouldn't be, no
(9:05:08 PM) trumasamune: ok, so that would mean, taking the bible literally, that the age of the universe or at least the stuff in it
(9:05:15 PM) trumasamune: to have been created within a week of that
(9:06:01 PM) NinjaTeben: yea
(9:06:58 PM) trumasamune: so if someone comes to you with evidence saying that this rock or this ice core sample or the half life of this molecule is older than five thousand years
(9:07:03 PM) trumasamune: they are wrong
(9:07:08 PM) trumasamune: or mistaken
(9:07:11 PM) trumasamune: right?
(9:07:28 PM) NinjaTeben: id wanna see their research on it
(9:07:40 PM) NinjaTeben: so
(9:07:46 PM) NinjaTeben: mistaken, yes
(9:08:08 PM) trumasamune: ok lets leave that there for a second, I'll come back to it I promise
(9:08:15 PM) trumasamune: do you believe in dna?
(9:08:21 PM) trumasamune: that we and other living things have it
(9:08:28 PM) NinjaTeben: yea
(9:08:36 PM) trumasamune: the periodic table? at least up to uranium
(9:08:47 PM) NinjaTeben: ya
(9:08:56 PM) trumasamune: genetics?
(9:09:09 PM) NinjaTeben: yupp
(9:09:13 PM) trumasamune: alright
(9:09:22 PM) trumasamune: gravity?
(9:09:29 PM) NinjaTeben: yes
(9:09:57 PM) trumasamune: alright
(9:10:08 PM) trumasamune: how about that the planets revolve around the sun in elliptical, not circular, orbits
(9:10:58 PM) NinjaTeben: yes
(9:11:02 PM) trumasamune: Alright
(9:11:08 PM) trumasamune: thats just a small list
(9:11:12 PM) trumasamune: what if I told you that
(9:11:22 PM) trumasamune: according to all the research and methods we used to discover all those things
(9:11:28 PM) trumasamune: all the current models we have and etc.
(9:12:00 PM) trumasamune: they require the earth and the contents of the universe to be much much much older than 5 thousand years
(9:12:09 PM) trumasamune: or else every single one falls apart
(9:12:17 PM) NinjaTeben: why?
(9:12:35 PM) trumasamune: thats sort of broad, how about you tell me why they wouldn't
(9:12:55 PM) trumasamune: you believe in them so you have some idea of what they are
(9:13:44 PM) NinjaTeben: i dont see any reason for the age of the earth necessary to play a factor on a physical principal like gravitational pull, or the way it travels in space
(9:14:00 PM) NinjaTeben: how would age dictate those laws to the point where they have to be extremely old to exist?
(9:14:26 PM) trumasamune: alright since you used gravity lets use that
(9:15:03 PM) NinjaTeben: i have to go in 15 minutes.  something outside of my control
(9:15:09 PM) trumasamune: alright
(9:15:11 PM) NinjaTeben: so lets mfocus on this issue
(9:15:14 PM) NinjaTeben: with the time we have left
(9:15:56 PM) trumasamune: the basic gravitational equation is G (m1m2) / r^2
(9:16:05 PM) trumasamune: m are masses of 2 different things
(9:16:11 PM) trumasamune: r is radius (how far they are from each other)
(9:16:17 PM) trumasamune: G is the gravitational constant
(9:16:27 PM) NinjaTeben: aright
(9:17:09 PM) trumasamune: the gravitational constant depends on the speed of light being what we think it is
(9:17:18 PM) trumasamune: namely, around 3x10^8 m/s
(9:17:55 PM) trumasamune: now, if thats true, it means that photons always move at this speed and only this speed in a vaccuum
(9:18:31 PM) NinjaTeben: photons of light?
(9:18:37 PM) NinjaTeben: photons of what?
(9:18:39 PM) NinjaTeben: anything
(9:18:39 PM) trumasamune: yes those are the only photons
(9:18:43 PM) NinjaTeben: k
(9:18:53 PM) NinjaTeben: just making sure there wasnt something new to be hit with
(9:19:04 PM) trumasamune: nope whenever someone says photons they're talking about how light moves
(9:19:12 PM) trumasamune: so anyway if thats true, that they always move at that speed
(9:20:06 PM) trumasamune: it's essential to the theory of gravity
(9:20:19 PM) trumasamune: so then we have these stars which are very far away
(9:20:24 PM) trumasamune: that we can see
(9:20:49 PM) trumasamune: which are hundreds, thousands, even millions of light years away
(9:21:20 PM) trumasamune: one light year is the distance it takes one photon of light to travel in a year
(9:21:50 PM) trumasamune: like I said it's essential to the theory
(9:22:10 PM) NinjaTeben: no, i get it all
(9:22:13 PM) trumasamune: and if it isn't true that at least several million light years have passed for us to see that star
(9:22:17 PM) NinjaTeben: and i've actually heard all of this before
(9:22:36 PM) trumasamune: alright, so to deny or to say that anyone who believes this theory is mistaken is...?
(9:22:42 PM) NinjaTeben: i've read, sadly, only a few pages into a book called "starlight and time"
(9:23:15 PM) NinjaTeben: and it speaks of...gosh i dont even know if i can do it anything of a justice
(9:23:26 PM) NinjaTeben: talking about the curving of space, and how that's used.
(9:23:37 PM) NinjaTeben: basically i dont even know how to say it
(9:23:39 PM) trumasamune: yes that is what gravity is
(9:23:48 PM) trumasamune: the curving is space and time, according to our current thoery
(9:23:50 PM) NinjaTeben: but it promotesa a concept, with formulas and physics as you ahve just done
(9:23:55 PM) NinjaTeben: to be able to fit the entire realm of space
(9:24:00 PM) NinjaTeben: into a smaller time frame
(9:24:06 PM) trumasamune: ....
(9:24:34 PM) trumasamune: so it's in this book? starlight and time
(9:24:46 PM) NinjaTeben: yes
(9:24:51 PM) NinjaTeben: let me go find it to give you the author
(9:24:57 PM) trumasamune: you sure you want to do that?
(9:24:59 PM) NinjaTeben: it's only like 200 pages, so its not a huge read
(9:25:02 PM) NinjaTeben: sure
(9:25:05 PM) trumasamune: I'm not going to read it
(9:25:10 PM) NinjaTeben: oh
(9:25:14 PM) NinjaTeben: then naw theres no point
(9:25:36 PM) trumasamune: What you're basically telling me, sort of haphazardly like you do with a lot of things
(9:25:52 PM) trumasamune: that it's possible that this mysterious person and his theory is right and the entire scientific community is wrong
(9:26:08 PM) trumasamune: and for some reason, we haven't listened to him or he hasn't come out and told everyone about it
(9:26:25 PM) NinjaTeben: no it kind of goes hand in hand with the scientific community if you will
(9:26:44 PM) trumasamune: if he denies that the universe is millions of years old, no it doesn't
(9:26:50 PM) trumasamune: I'm assuming it a dude
(9:27:02 PM) NinjaTeben: lol! yea it is
(9:27:06 PM) NinjaTeben: and i have to go real soon ;_;
(9:27:16 PM) trumasamune: alright
(9:27:52 PM) trumasamune: I hope you know what you're "not telling" me is craziness, btw
(9:27:59 PM) NinjaTeben: it is
(9:28:07 PM) NinjaTeben: it almost goes against my whole philosophy
(9:28:37 PM) trumasamune: obviously not....because you're prepared to believe him over what the entire rest of science says
(9:28:43 PM) trumasamune: or even say it's possible
(9:28:53 PM) trumasamune: which, I'm gonna tell you, it isn't
(9:29:18 PM) NinjaTeben: sorry, i read you wrong.  
(9:29:24 PM) trumasamune: ok
(9:29:26 PM) NinjaTeben: i read it as that not what
(9:29:37 PM) NinjaTeben: and your not you're
(9:29:43 PM) NinjaTeben: i read it as a conceptual thing
(9:29:46 PM) NinjaTeben: of me beliueving something
(9:29:50 PM) NinjaTeben: not really knoing much about it
(9:29:53 PM) NinjaTeben: knowing*
(9:30:08 PM) trumasamune: You do realize that you do that a lot, right?
(9:30:11 PM) NinjaTeben: but i have to go for now, my little brother is actually laying mnext to me waiting for me to be off
(9:30:19 PM) NinjaTeben: not as much as you'd think
(9:30:39 PM) trumasamune: No I haven't studied the koran, no I haven't gone to bible school, I've only read like 10 pages of this book but..., I haven't really thought about it that much but...
(9:30:49 PM) trumasamune: just in this conversation you've used it wayyyyy more than the average person does
(9:31:11 PM) NinjaTeben: because in this conversation, from the start i've been put into situations to put t all on the line >_>;;
(9:31:19 PM) NinjaTeben: im sorry that the average person is dumb and would rather just say
(9:31:26 PM) NinjaTeben: "i dunno" and shrug EVERYTHING off
(9:31:37 PM) NinjaTeben: and not even wanna have these conversations with you
(9:31:42 PM) trumasamune: Um...thats not what the average person does
(9:31:47 PM) NinjaTeben: but i get the feeling that's what you want me to say
(9:31:50 PM) NinjaTeben: what would they say then?
(9:32:06 PM) trumasamune: They would say things like
(9:32:12 PM) NinjaTeben: (we dont have time for this T_T i have to go)
(9:32:23 PM) trumasamune: sigh...
(9:32:37 PM) NinjaTeben: i do want you to know though that it saddens me a lot that 100% of our conversations
(9:32:40 PM) NinjaTeben: turn into this...
(9:32:48 PM) NinjaTeben: i actually wanted to talk to you about FFX
(9:32:52 PM) NinjaTeben: and the sphere grid
(9:33:01 PM) NinjaTeben: and ask if you still watch anime
(9:33:07 PM) trumasamune: Yeah that will never happen again, because that's stupid bullshit that doesn't matter
(9:33:08 PM) NinjaTeben: because i have some good ones to reccomend to you
(9:33:18 PM) trumasamune: if you really took the bible literally you would be begging me to believe in jesus
(9:33:23 PM) trumasamune: instead of all that stuff
(9:33:31 PM) trumasamune: but go, do whatever you have to do that is more important
(9:33:42 PM) NinjaTeben: i see it just as futile as many of the things you say you see are futile in me
(9:33:59 PM) NinjaTeben: but you can tak about meaningless bullshit with bry, sean and derek
(9:34:01 PM) NinjaTeben: because....?
(9:34:06 PM) NinjaTeben: they dont believe in the bible?
(9:34:11 PM) trumasamune: because they're not crazy
(9:34:20 PM) trumasamune: sean believes in a lot of whats in the bible
(9:34:44 PM) NinjaTeben: whats the point in believing some of it to be true?  to cut and paste what he believes in to make it convenient for him?
(9:34:44 PM) trumasamune: he things child abuse is kind of wrong though
(9:34:53 PM) trumasamune: and he doesn't sort of half-say that all of science is wrong
(9:35:04 PM) NinjaTeben: so he believes in both?
(9:35:15 PM) NinjaTeben: that's actually craziness.
(9:35:21 PM) NinjaTeben: the worst paart is that you always come at me though
(9:35:26 PM) trumasamune: Sigh...
(9:35:34 PM) trumasamune: You need to go so we obviously can't get into it
(9:35:36 PM) trumasamune: just go
(9:35:39 PM) NinjaTeben: i really do
(9:35:47 PM) NinjaTeben: sigh, k see you next time
(9:35:52 PM) trumasamune: Right...